Fr. Shannon’s book, “No One Taught Me How to Be a Man,” is out April 15th and he can’t wait to share it with y’all! In this episode, we delve into the complexities of masculinity, particularly from a trans perspective, and discuss the societal expectations and pressures that men face. Shannon emphasizes the need for a new understanding of masculinity that is inclusive and healthy, addressing the crisis many men experience today. This discussion is especially important as we head into a new era of men defined by evangelical Christian beliefs. 

Takeaways

• This book is about unlearning harmful masculinity.
• Trans perspectives can offer new insights on masculinity.
• Many men feel a sense of not being enough.
• There is a crisis in masculinity affecting men’s health.
• Healthy masculinity can improve relationships.
• Men often struggle with societal expectations.
• The book aims to provide practical steps for change.
• Courage is needed to redefine masculinity.
• Men’s closest relationships reflect their overall behavior.
• The conversation about masculinity is ongoing and necessary.

Chapters

(02:08) Exploring Masculinity: A Trans Perspective

(06:44) The Crisis in Masculinity

(12:47) The Need for New Masculine Models

(17:02) Identifying Male Suffering

(19:25) Romance and Relationships in Masculinity

Resources:

• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

• Grab your copy of No One Taught Me How To Be A Man at https://www.queertheology.com/books/

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

(9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis, revelation, the Bible declare good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning Each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Hello. I am so excited for today’s episode of the Queer Theology Podcast because if you listen to this on the day comes out, it means that Shannon’s newest book, No One Taught Me How To Be A Man is coming out in just two days. We’re gonna share a bit of a sneak peek. I think this is an exclusive sneak peek the first time it’s been Anything from the book has been shared at length publicly, so you’re in for a treat and we’re gonna just like jam on masculinity and the book and more.

(1m 2s):
So I’m really excited about that. Shannon, before we dive into your book, your, your, your selection in just like a sentence or two. What is this book and who is it for and what do you hope to accomplish with it? Yeah, this is a book about masculinity mostly for cisgender men, but for trans and queer men of all stripes to think about what are the things that we might need to unlearn in order to be healthier men for ourselves and for all of the people around us. So it looks at like different models of masculinity and what they’ve taught us and what in those lessons might be good and what in those lessons might be bad. And so I’m really hopeful that it opens up a conversation for men who have been thinking that their masculinity or the way that they embody their masculinity might need, need to change, but they’re not quite sure how to navigate that.

(1m 53s):
I love it. And would you share a, like a selection from your book with us? Yeah, so this is, this is the introduction of the book, so it’s a, it’s a way to kind of let you know a little bit more about what I was thinking and who this book is for. When I posted online that I was writing a book about masculinity, someone commented, I’m sorry, you have nothing to add to this topic when you hear that I’m a transgender man, you might agree with that random internet commenter. As a trans man, my credentials might seem to some to be suspect, yet it’s this very identity that has helped me to see and understand masculinity in a new way. As a transgender man, No One Taught Me How To Be A man. I wasn’t raised as a man, nor was I indoctrinated into masculine spaces when I figured out my own maleness.

(2m 38s):
After a lifetime of wordless, not enoughness, I had to make a masculine space for myself. My sense from talking with many other men and extensively studying the research on masculinity is that even those who were raised as men feel they too had to figure it out on their own. The struggle to figure out what it means to be a man and how to feel like you’re enough gets more complex. As the world changes rapidly, we continue to look for models to help us sort out how to be in the world. As I tried to figure out what being a man meant to me, I went first to the various streams of conversations about men and masculinity, but in each of them I found something to be lacking. Some fundamental piece was missing. There were residences, but none of them fully explained my experience of the world.

(3m 20s):
Some were centered around body parts And I knew from experience that it wasn’t those parts that made me a man. Some were centered on healing relationships with other men, but I had close male friends and that wasn’t doing it either. Some were focused solely on how to get and maintain relationships with women, and that too felt like not the whole picture, something was missing. I did what many men tried to do. I experimented. I tried on lots of different ways to be a man from the hyper-masculine man to the fierce protector to the gentleman, until finding some kind of mix that felt authentic and didn’t do harm to the people around me. On that journey, I look to other men to media portrayals of masculinity, to feminist conversations about toxic masculinity.

(4m 0s):
And in each place I try to figure out where I fit and what was missing. I realized that my unique upbringing, my own journey and what I’ve experienced in moving through masculine spaces might help unlock something for men who have that same sense that something is missing but can’t quite figure out what. You might be wondering why we need another book about masculinity. Haven’t we spent enough time talking about men and men’s issues? On the surface, it certainly seems men have been centered in far too many conversations for far too long. And the spate of books about the various crises and masculinity seem designed to make that center hold. And yet, in the midst of all of these conversations, we seem to have found very few solutions talking about masculinity isn’t new.

(4m 43s):
While there haven’t been the same well-defined waves as there have been in the feminist movement, there have definitely been streams of conversation that overlap, argue with one another and try to solve the problem of masculinity. In this work, the question often becomes, is it masculinity that’s the problem, or is it men? Is it possible to separate the two? Is there a way to encourage healthy masculinity? And what happens if we disagree on what healthy masculinity means? People have posited all sorts of solutions to the issue. Some thinkers say, if we could just, if we could simply recover some kind of warrior ethos, we’ll be alright. Others say, we just need kinder and gentler men. Some have theorized that it’s about connecting with an absent father or healing your father wound.

(5m 25s):
Others want us to engage in initiation rights, often stolen from indigenous communities. There are some who believe the way forward is to eradicate gender entirely. Some say everything masculine is toxic, while others say toxic masculinity doesn’t exist, and people are just shaming men for being men. What’s often lost in the midst of these schools of thought is the average man just trying to get through the day. Men who feel like they’re floundering and don’t know where to turn for help. From my conversations with other men, many of us feel like something is missing, something isn’t right. We feel like there should be be more, But we have no idea how to get it. We continually feel like we’re not measuring up to what our partners want and are expecting to the other men in our lives.

(6m 6s):
To a society that seems to keep moving the goalposts, it feels like hyperbole. But when we look at the statistics, there is indeed a crisis in masculinity. This isn’t some far right talking point about how we need to man up, nor is it simply a liberal left viewpoint about eradicating all of gender. No, this is a real crisis that is threatening the health, relationships, and wellbeing of men. And because of the way many men have been raised and indoctrinated, when men are hurting, they tend to hurt the people around them. All you have to do to see that, that this threat is real is look at the data from men delaying going to the doctor, to men having few to no friends outside of their romantic partners to the high rates of suicide.

(6m 46s):
Not only that, but men are also struggling with how to parent, how to date and find partners and how to connect. These statistics affect not only men, but also everyone in those men’s lives. There are direct links between the ways men are suffering and the harm they do to other people. If we truly want a healthy society, we have to address this crisis. What we’ve been doing hasn’t been working. We need a new kind of thinking and intervention that will allow men to show up for themselves and others. This book is an examination of masculinity that isn’t centered on biology or body parts. It’s an exploration of what it might take to be a good man in this world that seems filled with toxic men. It’s about masculinity that centers women and other people of marginalized genders, but that also makes space for men to be themselves.

(7m 30s):
It’s a plea for a healthy masculinity, a wholehearted masculinity and a gentle masculinity. And it’s written by a man who had to figure out on his own what masculinity was. This book is for men. If you identify as a man, if you move through the world as a man, then you’re welcome here. We’re not going to define what makes a man in this book. I don’t care what body parts you do or don’t have. I don’t care who you’re attracted to or not attracted to. I’m not worried about your testosterone level or your chromosomes or your DNA if you’re a man. This book is for you. If you’re wondering if you’re man enough, you’re, if you’re wondering if I’m going to try to tell you to stop being a man, I’m not. If you’re wondering, if I’m going to prescribe a one size fits all version of masculinity, that once again leaves you out, then fear not.

(8m 13s):
And keep on reading this book, book won’t argue that there’s only one way to be a man and that trans men, queer men, and anyone who doesn’t fit the stereotype aren’t men. Nor will it say that masculinity is just fine. And the real problem is all the women getting so upset about things. I don’t think the way forward is to reclaim the past and bring back old notions of chivalry and manliness. So if you’re open to the conversation, then let’s have it. If you’re hungry to think about being a man in new ways, if you’re feeling lonely in your masculinity, if you’re feeling like there’s no room for you in the world anymore, this book is for you. If you’re feeling like all of the old ways are dying out and you just don’t understand why, then read on. If you’re wondering why it seems like so many men are dying by their own hands or struggling to form relationships or feeling isolated, then we’re in this together.

(9m 0s):
If you’re a trans man who’s trying to figure out how to inhabit your new id, if you’re a queer man who senses, you’ve got some unhealthy practices or coping skills to unlearn. If you’re still figuring out what masculinity means to you, you’ll find a place here. What we’re not going to do in this book is decide who gets to be a man and who doesn’t. That’s a losing game for all of us. It sets up walls. You might be surprised to find yourself on the outside of them for too long. This idea of one right way to be a man has left too many of us feeling like we’re not enough, we’re not tough enough or cool enough or strong enough. But on the other hand, there are men who feel like they’re not sensitive enough or quiet enough or gentle enough to fit in anymore. This book is for all of us as we try to figure out what it means to be men in our current world.

(9m 43s):
I’m not going to ask you to stop being a man. I’m not going to tell you that we need to abolish gender or get rid of the binary, but I am going to ask what we mean by masculinity. I’m going to invite a conversation about how we’re showing up as men, and if that’s actually serving us. I want us to open up the doors to the secret places where many of us are wrestling, but are afraid to say it out loud. Yes, we’ll talk about how to be better husbands and fathers, but in some ways that’s a side note. It’ll happen automatically if we learn to be healthier Men, if we learn to be healthier men, our relationships, all of them, friendships too will deepen. Our physical health will get better. Our mental and spiritual health will improve. We’ll see a shift in our relationship to ourselves and our communities.

(10m 25s):
Does that seem miraculous? I promise It’s possible if we show up, if we do the work, if we allow ourselves to ask the questions and really listen to the answers and change the ones that we don’t like. This book is inclusive of transgender men, obviously, as it’s written by one. And it’s inclusive of men who are gay or queer and of men who are straight and who have never questioned either their gender or their sexuality a day in their lives. Our experiences of masculinity will differ from each other based on our class, our race and ethnicity, and the ways we were raised. Instead of trying to flatten the experience of masculinity, we should open it up. We all have something to learn from one another. It’s no secret the world is changing and many of us are feeling left behind the jobs that were once highly coveted for, their security, longevity and high pay don’t exist anymore, and they’re not coming back.

(11m 13s):
The ways many of us were taught to be, to speak, to act, to treat others aren’t seen in the same light anymore. The ways we formed relationships in the past aren’t available to us. In a world of fast and easy connection, we are lonelier than ever. After years of struggling exploring and experimenting, I’ve come to an experience of masculinity that I dream of for all men. I want us to have ease in our bodies, to feel like we are enough to have solid partnerships, to feel capable and competent in our workplaces and our in our households. To have deep friendships, to be physically, mentally, and spiritually healthy and to be content. While this might sound like a far-fetched dream, I do believe it’s possible.

(11m 53s):
Make no mistake. It’ll take courage. Courage to go against the grain, courage to face our deepest selves. Courage to shift generational narratives. When we do these things, people will push back. It will be uncomfortable for us and others. We’ll have to learn new ways of being and speaking and hold tight to them even as it disrupts the those around us. Change is hard. It’s easier to just keep doing what we’ve been doing, even if it doesn’t work anymore. We need courage now more than ever. Courage to face what’s no longer working for us. Courage to shake off ways of being that are holding us back. Courage to lean into discomfort and take charge of our growth so we can be the people we wanna be. Here’s what I promise, it’ll be worth it.

(12m 35s):
Amen. That’s that’s, I mean, I read it and I’m still like big tingling from that. So I have, so a bunch of questions. One is you do a lot of different types of work and you have written and preached and taught on a bunch of different topics. Like how did you end up wanting to write a secular book about masculinity out of all the other books you could, you have written and might write and will write? I feel like this was a topic that just wouldn’t leave me alone. It, it’s one that I started thinking about like a while ago, but didn’t feel ready to write.

(13m 21s):
It’s, it’s funny how like sometimes that just happens, right? We, we have this idea, but then we have to kind of grow into the idea. And part of it was that, you know, when I started my transition, I started reading a ton of books about masculinity. Like I even did a, a self self-guided study on masculinity as like part of my seminary education, education. And from the very get go I was reading these books and being like, I don’t, something is missing here. Like even as I was still very new in my own masculine journey, I just, I was like, I, these, I feel like these men are just, they don’t, they can’t even see what they can’t see, right?

(14m 8s):
And that I am seeing something else like as a trans person reading these books. And so that kind of planted the idea in my head that it was like, I think that something about transness is opening up a new window. And then I read some, some more recent books that were like trying to help men be better partners, right? And these were books by women, cis women who were very much like in touch with wanting men to be healthy. And yet they too were making all of these assumptions that were really based on societal expectations and not reality. Right? Like Fair Play, which is a book about like yeah.

(14m 50s):
Household, which I love. I love it too. It was like a super, super help helpful book. And also there’s all sorts of stuff in that book that I was like, this is not, this is not gender. Like this isn’t gender that you are assuming. Yeah. Like you’re making all of these assumptions. And and then there was another book also by a cis woman also, not To, not to knock on fair play, but like my partner And I read it and we had to, we’re like, well, we have to do a lot of translating ’cause this is like very clearly Yes. Meant for a like man, cis straight man and a cis straight woman and their kids. Right. Also, like at the end of the book, she kind of concludes it with like, I don’t know, like if you can get your husband to like carry like a third of the weight, like that’s a win.

(15m 35s):
You should really sell it. Like that’s like, that’s as good as it’s ever gonna get. Yeah. What, there’s some wild stuff in that book. There was also like a whole chapter about like identifying what type of husband your husband is. And one of them I was like, well, that’s my wife And I am, I’m the, I’m the wife in this situation. Yeah. Right. And so it’s just like these things. And then there was this other book also written by a cis woman that was like, you know, about how to, how men could be healthier. And she had something that I found really striking of that there was a man in her life that was being vulnerable and it upset her.

(16m 16s):
And I was like, okay, the, so we have these like double standards, right? And we have these expectations that cis folks are bringing to the conversation that are just like not serving anyone. And it feels like there is a space now for a, a book that tries to get rid of some of those assumptions, or at least to to name the assumptions. ’cause I think that was the thing that was bothering me is that people were making assumptions, but they weren’t naming them as assumptions. They were just saying like, this is how it’s, And I was like, oh, trans folks bring something to the conversation because like, we don’t, we don’t get to just say, this is how it is.

(16m 57s):
Right. We had to figure out who we are from, from the jump. Yeah. In that passage you read, you said, I believe this is what you said that you, you mentioned like the secret places where many of us are suffering, but are afraid to say out loud. And can you like sort of name some of the ways in which you’ve been suffering or you’ve seen not to like make you like bleed for us? Or the ways that you’ve seen like men suffering that this book seeks to like shine a healing light on? Yeah, I mean, I, I think, I think this sense of not enoughness is one that has been true for me. And I, I think is also true for other men as well. Like this sense of like, that you were somehow going to be found out, right?

(17m 42s):
Like for me it’s often like I am very deeply concerned in spaces with a lot of cis men of like being found out as trans and not putting me in danger. But I, but I think that there’s something else, right? Of like, people looking at me and, and, and judging me and saying like, oh, he’s not really a man or his masculinity is, is not authentic. And for me, again, it’s like, because of my transness, but I’ve seen in other men, like queer men who are worried that the ways that they’re carrying themselves are gonna reveal that they’re quote unquote not enough or too Effeminate. Yeah. All of the like no femme, like I Exactly. I want a real man. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, And I think that like even for cis straight men, there’s this sense of like, if I, if I am too emotional, if I am gentle, if I like, enjoy being with my kids, someone is gonna question my masculinity, my, so I think that that is a big one for a lot of folks.

(18m 41s):
And I think that there’s also, the other kind of big one that I’m seeing is like the world changing so fast and men, especially men of a certain generation, but not only like being unable to keep up, right? And that is both like technology and jobs, but it’s also like, what am I expected to do now? Am I expected to pay for the date or not? Am I expected to, I don’t be gentle or, or a protector? Am I like, what am I expected to do and how do I manage all of those expectations?

(19m 21s):
And I think that that’s a place that’s causing a lot of anxiety for men. Yeah. It’s, it sounds like a lot of that friction is happening in the context of like romantic relationships of what, and is that, is that like the true of this book? Or like how, like how is it about romance versus other spheres of life? Yeah, I I, it, there is a lot of, of like romance and partnership in the book, but I think that like, it, it’s because our, our re our closest relationships become a microcosm of how we act everywhere. Yeah. Right? So it’s like if you are someone who is not carrying your weight in your household, there’s a good chance you’re also not carrying your weight in your workplace, right?

(20m 9s):
So I think that whether you are partnered or not, this book like looks at the places where you might be feeling entitled to certain things because of your gender and how that might be playing out like in the, in all of the places you inhabit. So, you know, thinking about, there’s, I I tell a story in the book of my wife worked at a seminary and the seminary had like a shared kitchenette and she was like, it was only and always the men who would leave their dishes in the sink, in the kitchenette with the assumption, right? That like someone else would clean up after that in A progressive, a progressive seminary also, And this is a progressive seminary, right?

(20m 52s):
Like lots of queer and trans men working there. And she was like, it was striking to me that it was only the men that did that. And, but like that, and that was, but again, like, and so I can imagine that these men were also doing that at home, right? That there was this assumption that someone else would clean up for them. And I think that that assumption too of like, who in your workplace is in charge of remembering birthdays and getting the card and like bringing snacks for the whatever or organizing the annual potluck or whatever if, if we even do that at work anymore, but Right. Like, yeah. All of these ways that expectations are gendered and that I, I think we just need to be paying attention to the ways that those things are playing out.

(21m 37s):
Yeah. And you, you mentioned in, in the passage, like, we need a new kind of inspection, I think is what you said, or analysis. And you also like if we, if like we will do the work. And so like, I’m wondering, I mean I know that that’s like the book, but like, I guess like what, what is like new about this analysis and also, and like relatedly, I know that you’re not prescribing a like one size fits all approach, but like you said a few times, like something was, has been missing. And so like what is that missing piece and like what is the type of work that we, is it, is it like literal manual labor?

(22m 18s):
Is it like in our minds work? Like is it interper? Like what is, what is the work that we’re doing? Yeah, I mean, I, I think the work is like all of the above, right? There is, there is some unlearning we need to do about, or many of us need to do about like what it means to be a man and, and how we play that out. And so then as we do that unlearning work, some of it does become like manual labor to show up differently in our households and in our workplaces to like, you know, make sure that there is a fair distribution of labor or to learn for, for some of us who are not partnered it, it might be like to learn how to take care of the spaces that we live in, right?

(23m 2s):
Like, can you cook? You should be able to, right? Like whether you are living alone or with someone like you should be able to make some meals and do your own laundry and like pay attention when things are messy and, and not just assume again that that is like gendered labor. And so I think some of what is new is asking us to really examine, you know, what are the things that we are assuming about what it means to be a man and can we pay attention to those assumptions and, and hold them up. Some of, some of this is also like examining the different models of, of masculinity, which I think is not entirely new.

(23m 50s):
And also I think the way that I brought together like a bunch of different things is new right? There, there are folks that now that are starting to talk about like how growing up on sitcoms, right? Like taught men learned incompetence, right? And so like that is definitely part of this. But I think that there’s also, like, we got messages from our church and from evangelicalism about masculinity that like, whether you are in the church or even evangelical, that is now taking center stage in our country, right? Assumptions about what it means to be a man and how you interact with other people.

(24m 32s):
So I think putting all of that together and then, and then the other piece is that I’ve, I’ve tried to be really practical in this book of saying like, here are some next steps and here are some things to try and here are some things to like pay attention to and answer for yourself in a way that I hope it won’t just be like, great, now I’ve read this book And I don’t know what to do with it, but that it’ll actually like, give you some next steps and, and lead you into action. Ah, I love it. So it’s out tomorrow or it’s out in two days? If you’re listening to this, what is the exact date that it comes out? It comes Out Tuesday, April 15th. Fantastic. And so right now it’s already on sale. Obviously you can get it wherever books are sold.

(25m 13s):
We have some links to like the major retailers on our website at Queer Theology dot com slash books. But like you can go to your local bookstore and if they don’t have it in stock, every, all indie bookstores would be delighted to order it for you. And you can have it picked up there. Like it might be a few bucks more expensive than Amazon. Sometimes it’s the same price if you’re picking it up in, in store. So buy wherever books are sold, request from, from your library and stay tuned. I think we’ll be doing a book club about it at some point. So hop on our mailing list if you’re not already on there to get all of the details about that. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

(25m 54s):
To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.